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When is permission required to shoot minors? in Photography Talk
Do you have any thoughts as to when it would not be OK to shoot minors in public places? Both morally/socially and legally.
When is permission required to shoot minors? in Photography Talk
Opinion/Personal Business Practice: We always have a parent or legal guardian present when we shoot minors, even senior pictures, and a release/permission form is always required from the parents or legal guardians before hand. No exceptions, no complications, no problems for us! Mike
When is permission required to shoot minors? in Photography Talk
OK, in relation to THIS THREAD which was locked, the OP was encouraged to start another on the same topic. I haven't seen it, so I'm starting one. There seems to be paranoia and confusion when it comes to shooting minors. Photographers should know their rights, whether they choose to exercise them or not. I know many of you have opinions on this subject, which is good. Let's try to keep this on course and stick to a format for discussion. If you have an opinion to share, please preface it with OPINION and if you have something legal on the subject to share, please preface it with LEGAL and cite the associated law/code. If you think it's a law but can't find the relevant cite, please indicate this as well. Also, if you are posting about customs, opinions, and/or laws that are based in a country other than the U.S.A, please indicate this as well. Opinions can be universal, obviously, so you need only indicate this if it's a prevailing opinion in your country but maybe not others. EDIT: I don't want to turn this into a discussion of child pornography or anything even close. For purposes of this discussion, let's assume that the photographs we're talking about do not fall into that category. Thank you.
Do most photographers require proof of age? in Model Colloquy
And, I don't shoot minors, even for fashion or portrait work.
Minor model photography - advise request in Photography Talk
I only shoot minors with a parent or guardian present.
Minor model photography - advise request in Photography Talk
I personally will not shoot minors without parent present ever!!
Shooting a minor in lingerie? in Photography Talk
Seriously? I don't see the connection. Personally, I think the people running around crying "perv" are the ones with the issue. I don't shoot minors in glamour style but that's simply a practical decision. Morally I think it’s a non-issue.
Shooting a minor in lingerie? in Photography Talk
shooting minors nude is not illegal...omg...
Shooting a minor in lingerie? in Photography Talk
yeah better play it safe huh? do you know how many artists have gone to jail, because they wouldn't compromise their art? artists have had to push the envelope since the middle ages...i'm not just talking about shooting minors, im talking about social statements... at one time, artists were executed for portraying christ in perspective, in a painting.. geeze its to the point where cops are arresting people for taking legal perfectly legal photographs in public.... well ill tell you one thing..the cops and government should be afraid of the people, not the other way around... our founding fathers must be spinning in their graves....we dont deserve our own constitution...no wait, i do, cause im willing to fight for it....
Shooting a minor in lingerie? in Photography Talk
This is why I don't shoot minors also.
Shooting a minor in lingerie? in Photography Talk
+1. But that isn't what I want to do, just a good point. Let me repeat. Shooting minors in highly sexual situations is not my intention as a photographer.
Shooting a minor in lingerie? in Photography Talk
The truth is, high fashion photographers shoot minors in highly sexual situations every day. I don't know why everyone is pretending that's not the case.
Why me is it something in my profile? rant! in Photography Talk
Wow...one of the reasons I don't shoot minors. haha
List of underage model (so 16-17 for MM) in General Industry
[img]http://modelmayhm-7.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/100101/22/4b3ee27a6789b_m.jpg[/img] Yes this is only one of the advantage available. I hope this topic became a reference for everyone interest on shooting minor.
List of underage model (so 16-17 for MM) in General Industry
[img]http://modelmayhm-7.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/100526/05/4bfd1a60a90bc_m.jpg[/img] [img]http://modelmayhm-6.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/100525/15/4bfc52ad6688b_m.jpg[/img] [img]http://modelmayhm-8.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/100525/14/4bfc4309774de_m.jpg[/img] [img]http://modelmayhm-6.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/100613/19/4c15934020286_m.jpg[/img] There are many models with potentiality. I believe that even those who prefer don't shoot minors perhaps some could change mind giving a bit of visibility at these models.
Photographer asked me to bring an escort... in General Industry
Does this have anything to do with shooting minors in the nude or pissing off nuns? As for having the model bring an escort- fuck that noise. If the model is going to lie, the person they brought along will back THEM up not you. Then its two against one. I have an assistant who I prefer to work with. I've done lots of shots one-on-one with the model as well and its worked out fine.
Photographers and Minors in General Industry
Not wanting to speculate on why. I shoot minors when they fit the casting.
Photographers and Minors in General Industry
Bill, Your experience with shooting minors is much like mine!
Photographers and Minors in General Industry
That's fine then. I'm in Grand Rapids and will gladly take money to shoot minors if you don't want it. Honestly, I'm laughing at the raw paranoia in this thread. Don't you people understand- YOU are helping make things worse with those attitudes!
Photographers and Minors in General Industry
I've been shooting minors since way before the Internet came to be. Wish you were here!
Photographers and Minors in General Industry
Liability issues. Someone under the age of 18 cannot sign a legally binding contract, and usually require an escort, which some photographers don't allow. It's illegal to shoot minors in sexual ways, and lots of photographers enjoy doing nude/lingerie/glamour photography. Also, maturity issues.
Model contacted me for nudes, 17 years old... in General Industry
Not being funny but he's probably busy shooting minors tongue
Implied with 17yo in Model Colloquy
Personally, I don't shoot minors simply because it's a sticky situation. Morally, I don't see anything wrong with it... And even the laws are generally on your side as long as it's not sexual in nature. But when it comes down to it, much of society is very conservative, and all it takes is one person getting offended for you to be in a world of hurt. I play better safe than sorry... YMMV.
Implied with 17yo in Model Colloquy
Which is why, the smart ones here say "jut don't do it." It also doesn't change the fact that, there is at least some forms of nudity, which will not be illegal. The problem is drawing the line in the sand, which is why shooting minors in the nude is crazy.
Naked Minors in General Industry
So say something in writing. Something like "I don't shoot minors nude (in lingerie, whatever)".
What is a photographers NIGHTMARE? in Newbie Forum
ahh my studio is in my home too, so i dont shoot minors in my studio, but i dont see the problem going on location with them, do you?
Making young models feel comfortable in Photography Talk
common sense is having a parent or guardian or witness present when shooting minors. I guess common sense doesn't exist in your part of Canada?
I has teh new peektures. in SF2
......there's a legal way to shoot minors, right? RIGHT???? Morgan, these may be your best work so far. Very impressed.
looking for models over 21? in General Industry
Age doesn't mean anything to me, it's more the way the model can look. Leaving age limits out, you can be surprized what you can find here. I never shoot minors though, must be 18-up. Paul
17 and nude. in Model Colloquy
just don't shoot minors at all, unless you are doing a good business in senior portraits its just not worth the hassle. It really doesn't matter what they are wearing or not wearing, just wait 10 mo. and its a non-issue. Maybe its my middle age talking, but whats the big deal over 10 mo, or even a whole year, it goes by way too fast to worry about it.
Shooting in the Nude in Photography Talk
Donnie shoots minors without their pants on? Tsk tsk.
Photographer needs Driver's License # in Model Colloquy
Can anyone, anyone at all, post a link to a law that requires valid ID for nudity, per se (with the sole exception of work that falls under 2257)? Given that you can legally shoot minors nude, I won't be holding my breath :-)
Safety when shooting minors in Photography Talk
I don't shoot minors for any reason, whatsoever, without the parent's signature on the release, and a parent-(and another witness for myself)- present the whole time.
15 year old implied topless.. What would you do??? in Photography Talk
This is not a good deal at all.....young models need to realize although they want to be all the way into the Modeling Industry they need to wait like everyone else. You open up a lot of negativity if you choose to shoot minors in implied or nudes..
17 year model 18 year old escort !!! in Photography Talk
The person who asked why you need a release does have a point. A release is necessary when you want to publish work in connection with goods or services (ie, commercial usage). The publisher requires the release. As to shooting minors, whether commercial or not, check on your state laws.
first time nude shoot in Model Colloquy
Yes, I know shooting minors nude isn't illegal.
Ok Question.... in Model Colloquy
Oh this has always been my favorite rant. So here is where you see the Jail-house lawyers come out of the woodwork telling you what is legal and not legal... Then tell you how people need to pull their heads out... Those are the ones that scare me. Suggestive is what ever you find to be and where do we draw the line? When your door gets knocked in and hauled away to jail. It is the world we live in, and more-so will continue to live in. I don't like it, I hate it, but that is me. Drawing the line can only happen from within but there will always be those who don't care about a line... My stance? Make shooting minors more difficult and hope for the best. Reality, more Chester's will buy more cameras. (My opinion, don't like it, too bad)
FBI Called Me Today... in Model Colloquy
This is a bit frightening to me, since I am in that part of the state. Luckily I too require photo id from all my models, and I am not in the habit of shooting minors to avoid scenarios just like this one. If you are willing to share the model in question Jake, feel free to send me a PM. Good luck, and I hope everything works out without further complications. I love your style and have long admired your work even though I am no where near that "level." Kevin
On approaching minors, for modelling.... in General Industry
Do they stop being "crazy" on their 18th birthday? Even though it's kinda pathetic, I don't shoot minors without someone else there, usually a parent. I did talk with one 18 year old model who had been pushed into doing nudes, *by her mother.*
Question if a model release is needed, plz help!! in Photography Talk
It's not against the law to shoot minors without parental consent (as far as I know) and I was not trying to state that it was. I was only pointing out that just because the law does not require a release (OP's question) that he may still wish to seek parental consent. Law may not REQUIRE him to have it, but some people get pretty upset about "some photographer" taking pictures of their precious children without their consent and I can live without any of that kind of drama. Legal or not.
parental consent? i am so thoroughly confused in Model Colloquy
This is sadly funny. Just like in the "is it legal to shoot minors nude?" threads, people are throwing around a dozen different interpretations of what they think the law should day, what uncle joe's weekend card buddy told them it says, or what they read somewhere sometime and maybe might remember correctly, but no one has cited the actual law in the state where the OP resides. Contract law varies from state to state. The OP is in California. I don't have time to research it, but the State of California has their laws on-line. Why not try there? http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
16 and 17 year olds "I Don't Do Nudes" in Model Colloquy
I'm confused - perhaps its the late hour or my old brain is fried. Is it or is it not legal to photograph someone under 18 in the nude? Or is there no simple law to answer this question. N.B. I have not and do not shoot minors nude, semi-nude, implied nude or any other form of nude. REPEAT I do NOT.
Can I photograph a 17 year old without parent? in General Industry
AMEN! I shoot minors all the time without discussing it with their parents. They just understand that the clothes stay on, must be age appropriate and we're all good. As stated, they cant sign a release, but they do have cash! Now if the photos were that good, then contact mommy and have her sign one so you have a parents consent to use them. In the mean time, nothing wrong with making an honest dollar.
Man arrested for painting & shooting 7 year old in Off-Topic Discussion
I responded directlly to the comment that there is no difference between shooting minor children in a studio setting... The comment I made is directly relevant.
So a 17-year old wants to shoot with me in General Industry
Tested - really. How much does it cost to be the one doing the testing or being tested? Here is an excellent example of what could happen to lots of parents and photographers. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/arizona-coupl … id=8624533 A quick google search will find you all sorts of cases where photographers have been charged with all sorts of things only to be exonerated later. In fact, there is not need to even go so far as google. You can search the MM forums and find all sorts of cases where photographers have had legal dealings - even when they were in the right. You've put words in my mouth. At no point did I make any implication of legal or illegal behavior. Nor, have I made any statement that shooting minors may or may not be illegal. What I have advocated is knowing the law and making and educated decision about what you do. And, if you want to know, go to the best source of information available. I'm pretty sure A.J. and Lisa Demaree wouldn't have taken their images to Wal Mart for processing had they been aware of the legal risks they were taking. While ultimately, they were acquited, the personal and financial cost have been devastating. You don't have to be wrong, someone just has to make the claim. My advice to the OP remains that IF he wants a legal opinion, he ought to visit his attorney rather than relying on the information in a mm forum. You're advice seems to be that this isn't a case where the OP should consult with his attorney. His common sense and MM forums discussions are sufficient. One of the great things about this country is that we can disagree.
shooting minors? 2nd time? in Newbie Forum
Lol, to call my prerogative narrow minded, that's narrow minded. I guess to me, growing up as a model from 14 wouldn't be ideal. There is too much to learn and lessons that needed to be acquired first, your lucky the nature of the business didn't harm you then. I don't shoot minors. Sorry if I offended you. I didn't say I was against it.
shooting minors? 2nd time? in Newbie Forum
Shooting minors is a waste of tie unless agency signed, or you know them.
shooting minors? 2nd time? in Newbie Forum
Without the smart ass remark.. Anyways. I wouldn't do it. I don't shoot minors, and if I did.. you need protection from them being present.
shooting minors? 2nd time? in Newbie Forum
Shooting minors is no big deal. I have been modeling since I was 13 and it really isn't that much of an issue, or at least it never has been for me.
How a photog works with a model under 18 in General Industry
The OP indicated later in the thread that she is actually only interested in the legalities of shooting minors. She should probably edit the opening post.
nudity and children - deja vu all over again in Photography Talk
This has happened time and time again. I think a child molester is the lowest form of a human, but things like this make me shake my head. What parent does not have a picture of their kids playing in the bath? Be careful when shooting minors folks!
Asking for Proof of Age in General Industry
I have a place on my model release for age and I always ask for photo ID, most states require you to carry one, when shooting minors I usually have a parent present !
Photographers bringing escorts? in Off-Topic Discussion
I'm not worried about losing stuff. Ironically the only time I've had a camera stolen was at an apartment complex community room where a security guard was supposed to keep an eye on things. I would worry more about false accusations in this day and age. For us male photographers, it's absolutely wonderful to have a female assistant working closely with the teenaged female models. There is one assistant I miss greatly. She was a model, professional make up artist, and trained ballet dancer. Her name was Ava, and she was very important to have with me when shooting minor aged girls for their actor and model portfolios. Ava and I worked like a team. But she moved away to go to nursing school in Oregon or Washington. By now, she has probably married a doctor and raising a family?
Taboo Subject? in General Industry
Mostly because as diverse as each profile and portfolio is...the opinions expressed within the forum is also just as diverse (and sometimes rather heated too, which is why if you scoot down to the lower right part of the forum, you'll see what is known as the "brig" list...click on that and you'll get an eyeful of just who has the strongest opinions and who likes to exercise their "freedom of speech" quite often LOL! I've been here just over a year now and truthfully when I see threads like "Escorts", "shooting minors nude", etc. I just roll my eyes and keep looking (elsewhere) to see if anything is funny enough or worthwhile enough for me to pop in and make a post on. It's like over in the "Soapbox" section of the forum...you want to see some heated banter and adults having snit fits...trying poking around in that for a few minutes (but word of caution here, if you post in there, you could be "shark bait" because some mighty big sharks roam freely throughout there and they have razor sharp teeth that can cut through your hard drive to get at you LOL!). You know you are new here...chances are you'll make one or two posts that might get your ass chomped on by several and in turn you'll chomp others as well. But wear your battle wounds with pride and keep plugging away with posts! LOL! Good luck Sue Swank Photography http://www.swank-photography.com
Taboo Subject? in General Industry
Well, when it comes to shooting minors, Pedobear always gives his seal of approval.
Model 3 months from her 18th birthday...nudes? in General Industry
Agree. The martyr best be someone who clearly was not shooting minors nude but got snared by 2257 regardless, which will go much further to expose the injustice. There is no defense for actually doing what 2257 claims to prevent.
Get Nekid or Get Lost! in General Industry
You misread it. Because I shoot minors who cannot disrobe, I see no reason to tell the 18 y/o she has to due to her age. So the field is level and they rules are the same. Just because you legally can, doesnt mean I'm going to take advantage of it
Get Nekid or Get Lost! in General Industry
OP...its NOT okay to shoot minors nekkid...Your reasoning, as stated above, is not excusable by any means. Its disgusting. EDIT: just read your response. sorry
Contacted by underage model: Disturbing in General Industry
Thats logical if they dont mix business like that, that makes sense. Saying many pro's dont shoot minors simply because of age doesnt. I dont put my bondage shots on the same web port as my high school sports shots either.. its a business decision not an age based one.
Under 18 shoot in Newbie Forum
QFT. Not to mention all the automated photo booths at the malls, wonder how many of them have had to explain themselves to a judge? Shooting "minors" is a HUGE percentage of the retail photography business, to act like there is some "risk" in that requires a lawyers help is silly at the least.
working with minors... in Photography Talk
As you can see, and as you no doubt know, shooting minors in the nude (legal or illegal) is fraught with risk. It might not be illegal were you are from, but in all seriousness do you want to have to potentially go through all the shit that comes with it to find out? Look at it like this. If one of those "citizens with concerns" does report you (legal or not) the police are going to come and they are most likely going to take you to the station. They are going to question you and based on the outcome of that they will either release you or arrest you. Oh and if you are arrested, its going to cost you crap loads on lawyers to find out you were innocent. Personally, I say fk that, its not worth it. John
Appropriate Age for Nude Modeling in General Industry
I dont know about you Doug, but that is the mentality that would make me look at someone twice in this topic. The "I can only think of one reason in my head why someone would take a picture of an 8yr old naked" Ummmm... Stay away from my 8yr old please, comes to mind.The point was, this question has been ask numerous times before. WHY? What is the interest in shooting minors without clothes? It just strikes me as strange that there is ALWAYS someone seeking validation in doing something that some societies say is taboo. When someone asks "when can I" "why can't I". I begin to think the worst of their intentions.
Appropriate Age for Nude Modeling in General Industry
so then by using that standard, its illegal to shoot minors at all...clothed or unclothed... geeze... were all in a heap of trouble...
NUDE MODELLING- age in CALIFORNIA in Newbie Forum
Kymberly, I do not recall the OP even asking to shoot minors in suggestive manners..... I understand where you are coming from, but the OP only asked what the legal age is
NUDE MODELLING- age in CALIFORNIA in Newbie Forum
:sigh: THIS IS WRONG INFORMATION. Google the following to see just how wrong: Sally Mann David Hamilton Jock Sturgis Dost Test 18USC2256 Alessandra's Smile Note that I am not endorsing the idea of shooting minors nude. It is still legally risky and nude images of models under 18 are not allowed on MM, regardless of legality.
Escort wants to leave.... in Photography Talk
I don't shoot minors for that reason (but on a seperate note) as stated above - I wish escorts would leave lol...
Shooting pictures of minors in Newbie Forum
choo choo trainwreck personally, i just opt out of shooting minors, the bodies are a pain to hide.
Photographers and younger people in Model Colloquy
Obviously, not at the same place as you do. If the act that I protect myself while shooting minors with model releases signed by their parents (which takes very little effort) means that I believe in aliens and Bigfoot, you just gave me the biggest laugh of the day. The same people that claim to know "the facts", or have "industry standard" information don't seem to be able to provide links to documentation to support their "facts". So, in the presence of the information that I have, and the opinions of those that I have consulted with, and those that I have asked, I will continue to protect myself in a way that I see fit. I hope that answers your question.
Photographers and younger people in Model Colloquy
Yes, we do. Those that do not can roll the dice, and take their chances. I'm not going to compromise my comfort level because somebody says "Dude, shooting minors is not a big deal".
Group Shoot Albion, MI- Possibly August in Events
I say leave it 18+ as many photographers wont shoot minors unless a parent accompanies them to sign the release. I'd be interested in attending.
Do you need parent's signature when working TFCD in General Industry
I can't speak to the laws that may relate to shooting minors for given purposes in various states. However, I think the idea that the issues of release are tied more to the type of compensation than image use is an idea that is going to cause you problems.
16 year olds doing Pin-up work in Model Colloquy
Legally speaking I suspect you don't have a clue what you are talking about, But that is just my opinion. And I suspect you don't really grasp what the range of "pin up" is... but that's another issue as well. So how about you stop spreading the manure? If you are not comfortable shooting minors that's fine, If you want to say you don't think it's a good idea that's fine. but child porn??? Good god... give it a break.
How come photographers won't work with me? in General Feedback
Unfortunately these points are a very strong reason. Even worse, is that people still believe the crap about shooting minors. I do all the time and have NEVER had an issue. Probably because I'm NOT worried about there being an issue. Heck, my avatar is 17. Amazingly, I'm not posting this from the county or state jail.. However, as many have said, age is probably the biggest issue. But also as someone mentioned, might be a good idea to hire a photographer and MUA and show the world what you can do.
Appropriate Age for Nude Modeling in General Industry
True. My point was that this woman's life was ruined because of a FALSE CLAIM that she was shooting minors nude.
On "minors" and "18" in General Industry
How do stat rape laws apply to photography? Are you just using that as an example of how laws and their legal interpretations can change? And if so, again. I'd still say trouble is highly UN-likely when it comes to shooting minors in a legal professional fashion.
On "minors" and "18" in General Industry
Well put Doug, its the complete lack of logic some people interject into this topic that gets me so agitated. Often its just a matter of opening their eyes and looking around themselves during everyday life that would prove what they put out there as fact is completely obviously false. There are hundreds of thousands of Senior Portrait photographers that make a living shooting "minors" 99.9% of them never have an issue. And I've seen many pretty "sexy" senior portraits.
Photography Myths. in Photography Talk
72 dpi. You need experience and a good portfolio to be considered for a fashion agency. It's illegal to shoot minors nude. America's Next Top Model You own the copyright so you can do whatever you want with the pictures. Copyright always belongs to the photographer. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Use 32 mb memory cards. Your work is awesome.
Photography Law Question in Photography Talk
See but earlier you've also said: Which to me implies that the model was under 18 otherwise why is a guardian present and why would a friend bring it up? Thinking on it more I believe in the UK and probably in the US (but I'm not a lawyer so don't quote me) that the police could seize your equipment if they have a "reasonable suspicion" that you could have child pornography. Could this image and a phone call from a concerned parent of that "friend" be reasonable suspicion? I don't know but maybe. If someone was to take your hard drive now how many pictures of young girls that are either nude or near nude are there and do you have documented proof to say that each of them are over 18? How long would they have your camera and computer gear until they're happy that there is nothing untoward going on? This is why model releases are so important. I see a lot of photographers say they won't shoot minors period and I think it's the wise choice.
underage nudes and the law in Photography Talk
One voice is not enough. The African Americans were criminalized for being black until a million of them marched on Washington and fought for their rights. When a million photogs are ready to shoot minors nude and post them proudly I will promise to be right there with them (even though my photography sucks lol) and make my voice heard (cant arrest us all lol).......dont hold your breath haha
Legalities, Being a Minor, and General Ignorance in Model Colloquy
this might be way off base but ill put it out there the worlds in a funny place when shooting minors (whether they are in your legal situation or not) one has to be careful what is being shot and how they go about it that being said - "lolita-anything" and being under the age of consent might be causing some concern given the connotation the term lolita solicits maybe a name change im not suggesting that theres anything wrong with the name or what youre doing (port looks fine) but it may steer some people clear (if your not getting the requests you wished via MM) but again thats just me and my observation - one has to tred lightly these days
Shooting without a parent around.. in General Industry
OP... This thread has a lot of misinformation. I'll try to sort out the fact from fiction for you. 1. It's not illegal for photographers to photograph minors with or without the presence, or consent of their parents or guardians, in any state in the US, with the possible exception of ... under certain circumstances... Oregon. This is always something that is subject to change as laws change. 2. Because many people will sue someone if the opportunity arises, most photographers will require a release. Release forms vary in their wording and many are poorly written. Essentially, though, the release boils down to a model giving a photographer permission to do various things with the images of the model. Because the signature of minor isn't legally good enough to protect the photographers from litigation, a wise photographer will require that a parent or guardian sign the release. 3. Release forms can be signed at anytime before or after a shoot. Since there is no such thing as a 'standard model release", models would be wise to ask photographers requiring a release to send it to them in advance of a shoot, so that the model and/or parent or guardian can see (in advance of a shoot), exactly what rights and permissions the model is giving to the photographer. Minors never need to sign releases...but there's nothing wrong with them doing so. 4. There is usually no need for a release for a shoot that is conducted in public place....like outside. There's probably some exceptions, so wise photographers simply cover their butts by getting one. 5. The reason some photographers feel a need to have another person present varies. Some aren't even sure why they require it, they just do. If a model claims that while the two were alone when the photographer touched them inappropriately, or raped them, it becomes one person's word against that of another...unless another person is present as a witness. (more on this below). Being a minor or an adult model doesn't matter since the alleged crime would be serious either way. I never understood why it is that photographers feel a need to have another person present for a shoot with a minor, and not with an adult model and such a requirement borders on age discrimination. I know of one instance where a photographer shot a high school senior portrait of a 17 year old girl. Somehow he felt comfortable if she brought a friend. The two minors accused the photographer of touching one girl inappropriately, and the two ruined his reputation and business in the hopes of somehow making a lot of money from a lawsuit. After about a year, friends of the two girls came forth and reported to police that they learned from the two girls that the entire story was made up and planned in advance of the shoot. The criminal and civil cases were both dismissed, but the photographer lost a business that grossed almost $600K a year. If I were afraid of a model making a planned assault on my business, the third person in the room would be one of my choosing. I don't worry about such things. 6. Regarding nudity. It is not illegal in any state (except Oregon), to photograph a minor, nude. There simply are no laws against it. However, the resulting photographs could be considered by some to be "pornography". Pornography has never been well defined from a legal perspective. One Supreme Court judge once admitted "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." So, since pornography is not well defined, and moralities vary, it's very risky for photographers to photograph minors nude, with or without parental consent...because if it's considered to be "pornography" the photographer and the parents can be in deep crap. 7. Like JC Penney, K-Mart, Walmart, Glamour shots, and a myriad of brick and mortal national chains, who photograph minors with or without anyone else present, I'm not afraid of minors. I'll work with you. Jump on the Amtrak in Chicago and visit Minnesota. I'll pick you up at the Amtrak station here, with or without a parent, and we'll shoot. Or...if you have time on June 29th or 30th, July 1 or 2, I'll be in Chicago for the LATE ride (10,000 people on bikes riding thru Chicago for 25 miles at night)....and I'd be happy to photograph you by Buckingham fountain, the Lake, Grant Park and near the El...with or without a parent. I hope that helps. btw...I teach this kinda stuff in a course called, "The Business Side of Professional Photography".
Emancipated teenager in General Industry
It is interesting, to some degree, there is ambiguity as to what an emancipated minor can do, state to state. The laws have changed an evolved as well. In all states, if they are emancipated they can sign a release. I don't believe there is any state where they can buy cigarettes or alcohol. Other areas tend to be more confusing. In California, it used to be that an emancipated minor could shoot some forms of sexual nudes, where as a non-emancipated minor could not. Of course, that language also conflicted with federal law, particularly 18 USC 2256. California changed it. There are still some exceptions to what an emancipated minor can do, depending on state. In California, again by example, certain aspects of labor law change if a minor is emancipated. Until recently, if a minor was emancipated, you didn't always need a set teacher for some things. Now, with changes, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. So, if we get away from signing releases, I agree with your point completely. I do shot minors and I solve the problem by treating an emancipated minor the same as one who is not. The only exception is that I allow them to sign their own release, so long as I have seen the actual decree. That eliminates any possibility of running afoul of the law by allowing them to do something that I should not. As I have said before, many people choose not to work with minors at all. I happen to shoot them, but I respect those who choose not to. The only exception I take is the suggestion that every shoot will become inappropriate. I have no issues shooting headshots or fashion. I've done plenty of swimwear shoots as well. I stay away from lingerie or any kind of nudity.
Underage implied and lingerie in General Industry
Nude, Suggestive, Risque, Sexy, or Similar Photography of Minors Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) General">http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … 63]General Industry > David Hamilton: How are his books legal? Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) Photography Talk > Am I being set up? (2+ pages) Photography Talk > Minors shooting nudes and fetish? Is this legal? Photography Talk > Shooting a minor in lingerie? General Industry > Underage Fashion Models posing Nude for Euro Vogue (5+ pages) Photography Talk > T Magazine & Paolo Roversi & Underage nudes State Laws regarding Child Pornography or Nudity (USA) State Child Pornography Statutes (PDF document) Federal Laws regarding Child Pornography (USA) All are part of Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 (Index) Note that nudity is not automatically included, and that clothed images can be included. 2251. Sexual exploitation of children § 2252. Certain activities relating to material involving the sexual exploitation of minors § 2252A. Certain activities relating to material constituting or containing child pornography § 2256. Definitions for chapter § 2257. Record keeping requirements It helps a lot if you: Understand the society under discussion. Understand the laws in that society. Understand the reasons for both of the above, and the penalties for violating either cultural norms or the law, while recognizing that the laws are not the same as the cultural mores. There are many instances where unlawful activities are widely accepted (e.g. speeding, changing lanes without signaling, tax evasion, copyright violations), and many instances where lawful activities are anathema (or are proclaimed to be anathema...) to many (e.g. adultery, adult pornography). This is an area where many peoples' beliefs are at odds with the law, yet many of them insist that There Is A Law, apparently because they feel there should be one. Certain kinds of photography of minors are unlawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. Certain kinds of photography of minors are lawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. Certain kinds of photography, even if 100% legal, may cause distress for other reasons.
Shooting pictures of minors in Newbie Forum
You will hear a lot of nonsense about this, but IMHO in the US it boils down to three answers: 1. No paperwork whatsoever is necessary to shoot pictures of minors. People do it all the time. A large percentage of all the photos ever taken have minors in them. Search for models under 18 and ask them if anyone did any special paperwork before shooting their portfolios. In many cases, the answer will be no. However, without a model release, you will be quite limited in what you can do with the pictures. 2. In general, if the model is a minor, the model release must be signed by the model's legal guardian (usually a parent, but not always). If a model claims to be an emancipated minor (a legal status that lets her sign contracts like an adult), ask her to let you make a copy of the court order. If she doesn't have a notarized copy of the court order in her wallet, trust me...she isn't an emancipated minor. Be aware that state law varies. In some states, a model release for someone under 21 may be revocable, meaning that you could lose some of your rights in the pictures you take even if you have a release. A few states also allow underage models to sign releases under certain circumstances, but you're still much better off having a parent sign the release. Search on "model release state law" for more info. 3. Before shooting nudes or implied nudes or sexually suggestive non-nudes with a minor anywhere in the picture (whether or not the minor is nude, etc.), seek qualified legal counsel in your own state. DO NOT rely on what anyone on MM or anywhere else tells you. It's your ass. Pay for and get good advice about how to keep it covered. It can be done legally, within strict limits, but if you aren't willing to pay a good lawyer and follow his advice to the letter, don't shoot the pix. There's a lot of paranoia in general about working with minors. The simplest precaution? Don't do a shoot in a private place with anyone underage, or for that matter anyone you don't have reason to trust, unless there's another responsible adult around. If a minor model can't/won't bring a parent, recruit an assistant or hire an MUA. Better yet, do both. You didn't ask about paperwork for shooting non-minors, but here's my answer anyway: Always get a model release and a photograph of the model's drivers license to show that she was of age to sign the release. Even if you don't get a model release, you still need a copy of the model's ID. There are many reasons why you might need to identify the real person in a photo, not a stage name or handle, plus if there is any nudity or overt sexuality in the image, you need to be able to prove that you had good reason to believe that the model was at least 18. Finally, if it's a TF* shoot and you ask the model to sign a release, be prepared to give her a usage license stating that she has permission to use the photos you give her for self-promotion. Any smart model will refuse to sign a model release without getting a usage license (or something else of value, like money) in return. Optional: You may wish to have the usage license limit her rights to alter the images by saying that she can only do minor retouching and that she can only resize the images, crop them, or alter the color space as required for reproduction. (E.g., cropping or resizing to fit a space in a document, converting to sRGB for websites, or converting from color to sepia or b&w for her comp card or agency profile.) Anything else requires your permission. If you do that, be sure she also signs and dates the license, acknowledging that she accepts your terms. Keep a signed copy for your files. Hope this helps! Drayke [Female pronouns are used for the model for convenience only. I'm well aware that men can be models.]
Photographers and Minors in General Industry
In the US (where the OP is), this is not the case though. Laws vary throughout the world... I rarely ever shoot alone. At the studio I shoot @, there's always someone there @ the front office. I have hair/mu 99% of the time, because it isn't worth shooting without good make-up. Otherwise, I might as well shoot for Sears... This is subjective though. Ever since those Disney brats (Britney, Christina, etc) made it big, teenage girls wear lingerie to school as outerwear... You definitely don't want to try & shoot sexually exploitive, but you can shoot quite a diverse amount of stuff with kids... Look through this girl's port: http://www.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?ID=249879 Take note of the stuff she did with Bruce Smith for Supermodels Unlimited. She was 12 years old, when that was shot... Neverless, her stuff is impressive for being 15, but even @ 12, well, she get's a few thumbs up from me. I talked with her mom back then & would have shot her in a heartbeat - still would... If you ever would like to shoot a potential supermodel (I mean a real one, not one that is in their own mind), you have to catch them as a discovery, when they are young. By the time they're 18, they are either out of reach or over & done with... PaulIn Florida http://articles.directorym.com/Breach_o … ml#8064922 "There may be certain circumstances that may cause a contract to be null and void. If this is the case, it may be possible to get out of being accused of breaching a contract. There are many grounds that may be used to void a contract, although contacting a lawyer is recommended to see if they apply to your case. A lawyer can give you advice on how you should proceed. A contract may be voided if it is determined that a minor entered into the contract. In most states, a minor is considered anyone under the age of 18, although there may be exceptions. If a contract is signed by a minor, and then later he or she wishes to void it, it can generally be voided with no breach of contract. One way to remedy this is to have a parent or guardian over 18 sign for the minor, or to simply not enter into a contract with one in the first place." I work with minors and I will not have a minor sign a contract -- on a model release if the subject is a minor I have the parent sign on their behalf. A contract with a minor except under special circumstances ( emancipated minor) is pretty much worthless IMO if it can be null and void simply because the signor was a minor.
Minors and implied nudity? in Photography Talk
Certain kinds of photography of minors are unlawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. Certain kinds of photography of minors are lawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. This is an area where many peoples' beliefs are at odds with the law, yet many of them insist that There Is A Law. Why they believe this is unclear, but that doesn't stop them from insisting there is one (or more). It is also worth keeping in mind that doing something that is entirely legal can still get you in trouble via the court of public opinion. MM Threads about Minors: Nude, Suggestive, Risque, Sexy, or Similar Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) Photography Talk > Am I being set up? (2+ pages) Photography Talk > Minors shooting nudes and fetish? Is this legal? General Industry > Underage Fashion Models posing Nude for Euro Vogue (5+ pages) Photography Talk > T Magazine & Paolo Roversi & Underage nudes State Laws regarding Child Pornography or Nudity (USA) State Child Pornography Statutes (PDF document) Federal Laws regarding Child Pornography (USA) All are part of Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 (Index) Note that nudity is not automatically included, and that clothed images can be included.
Can models under 18 do underwear shoots? in General Industry
Yes you can, but it's a complicated issue. Certain kinds of photography of minors are unlawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. Certain kinds of photography of minors are lawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. In most situations, lingerie falls into the large gray area. There are many instances where unlawful activities are widely accepted (e.g. speeding, changing lanes without signaling, tax evasion, copyright violations), and many instances where lawful activities are anathema (or are proclaimed to be anathema...) to many (e.g. adultery, adult pornography). This is an area where many peoples' beliefs are at odds with the law, yet many of them insist that There Is A Law, apparently because they feel there should be one. Some people will insist that it's always against the law. That's rarely correct: there are many situations where it's perfectly legal--but there is a social aspect which fits the above 'there oughta be a law' approach. That said, other than commercial use for catalogs, magazines and such, you're going to find it difficult to find a photographer willing to take the social risks. MM Threads about Minors modeling Nude, Implied, in Swimwear or Lingerie, or Similar Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) Photography Talk > Am I being set up? (2+ pages) General Industry > Underage Fashion Models posing Nude for Euro Vogue (5+ pages) Photography Talk > T Magazine & Paolo Roversi & Underage nudes State Laws regarding Child Pornography or Nudity (USA) State Child Pornography Statutes (PDF document) Federal Laws regarding Child Pornography (USA) All are part of Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 (Index) Note that nudity is not automatically included, and that clothed images can be included. 2251. Sexual exploitation of children § 2252. Certain activities relating to material involving the sexual exploitation of minors § 2252A. Certain activities relating to material constituting or containing child pornography § 2256. Definitions for chapter § 2257. Record keeping requirements
Couple shoot in General Industry
Obviously, you need to talk to an attorney for reliable legal advice. For general (unreliable) advice, you really need to be more specific a to what you are shooting. There are lots of different laws that apply, and you need to follow them all. First of all, it is illegal to shoot or possess pornographic images of a minor. As long as your images are not pornographic, then you probably are not in violation of this law. The difficult question is whether or not they are pornographic. Nude images are not automatically pornographic, and nudity is not a requirement for pornography. An image may very well be pornographic even if no "naughty bits" are visible. Next there are issues with contributing to the indecency of a minor. You need to make sure that you don't fall into this category. The specifics of the shoot are likely important. For instance is the male standing behind the female holding her breasts to hide them? Is the male nude with his privates hidden by the female? There are various laws that prohibit certain activities with a minor. If the activity is prohibited you don't want to photograph it. If the activity is criminal, you don't want to be an accessory or conspirator. Similarly, if the activity is illegal, then parental permission does not make it legal. Parental permission just makes the parents accessories or conspirators to the crime. If the depicted activity and photos are legal, you may wish to obtain parental permission anyway. This reduces the chances the parents will accuse you of being a child molester and abusing their daughter. Many photographers fear that an accusation would be bad for business, even if ended up being dismissed in court. All the various child labor laws apply. If you are paying the model, you need to make sure you follow the same labor laws as with any shoot. Keep in mind, that even if the shoot itself is legal, it may affect your reputation. Shooting sexy photos of minors is a hot topic for many people. Some people feel strongly that these images should not be taken, even if they are legal. Out of an abundance of caution, many photographers will avoid getting involved in projects that involve sexy shots of minors. I am not an attorney and you should not rely on anything I say. If you are concerned about the legal aspects, you should discuss the specifics of the shoot with a local attorney.
does law enforcement snoop around? in Photography Talk
That is a sad story and I have no doubt it is true. Let's distinguish though. It is one thing to look for people collecting child porn or wanting to have sex with a minor. It is another to try to induce someone to shoot a minor. With child porn, all you have to do is to get the person on the other end to knowingly ask for an inappropriate image of a minor. If you send them the image and then catch them in possion of it, you have made your case. The police do that all the time. It is much harder to prove that someone wants to shoot illegal images of a minor unless they specifically ask for something illegal, i.e. simulated nude sex, for example. If someone merely agrees to photograph a minor, that doesn't by itself, necessarily constitute an illegal act.They'd have to get you to agree to shoot a minor, then bring someone appearing to be a minor, you would then have to do the shoot and the shoot would, in fact have to involve illegal images. It is much more complex. They are generally more interested in going after peopel who are already in posession of illegal images or are already shooting nudes of minors. They don't tend to fish for that as much.
Appropriate Age for Nude Modeling in General Industry
There are many instances where unlawful activities are widely accepted (e.g. speeding, changing lanes without signaling, tax evasion, copyright violations), and many instances where lawful activities are anathema (or are proclaimed to be anathema...) to many (e.g. adultery, adult pornography). This is an area where many peoples' beliefs are at odds with the law, yet many of them insist that There Is A Law, apparently because they feel there should be one. Some kinds of photography of minors are unlawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. Some kinds of photography of minors are lawful--some clothed, and some unclothed. As I'm sure you've guessed, this has come up before... Nude, Suggestive, Risque, Sexy, or Similar Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) Photography Talk > Am I being set up? (2+ pages) General Industry > Underage Fashion Models posing Nude for Euro Vogue (5+ pages) Photography Talk > T Magazine & Paolo Roversi & Underage nudes State Laws regarding Child Pornography or Nudity (USA) State Child Pornography Statutes (PDF document) Federal Laws regarding Child Pornography (USA) All are part of Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 (Index) Note that nudity is not automatically included, and that clothed images can be included. 2251. Sexual exploitation of children § 2252. Certain activities relating to material involving the sexual exploitation of minors § 2252A. Certain activities relating to material constituting or containing child pornography § 2256. Definitions for chapter § 2257. Record keeping requirements
Have u ever known about violence against models? in General Industry
It's crazy! You & I have posted so many times in what must be hundreds of threads on this forum that pertain to "escorts!" As long as humans walk this Earth, there will be disagreements, murder and rape. There will also be agreement, love and justice too. Much of this has to do with our differing perspective on how we see the World. Remember when I started that silly thread years ago about how "escorts" might be beneficial to shoots or some such shit? We locked horns in that one! I really learned a lot over the years of posting in these threads. In understanding those various terms, I really don't have "escorts" or body guards attending any of my shoots. I use communication to learn things about the models I shoot with BEFORE they get in front of my camera. By the time they get in front of my camera, we have already built trust in each other. When I talk about "invited guests" it's actually about people we mutually have agreed will benefit our shoot. Some are assistants to me or to the models. A hair stylist and/or MUA might be invited (and paid!) Much of the choices to put together a team, or have one person assist, or no one with us depends on if it's a TFP or paid shoot, and location. There have been times when I've shot with minors, and a chaperone is suggested. Even then, it depends on the model and how much trust the parents have with me. As in the past, I've shot with minors where the parents dropped them off at my studio. Others stay and watch. I have even shot with some minors enough where the parents had me pick their daughter up and drive her to the shoot. These young ladies have grown up to become adults with their own kids ... and guess what? I'm still shooting their family many years later! Of course with minors, the shoot is always within the appropriate guidelines of typical modeling shots or portraits. It's quite an honor when some of my friends consider me their "family" photographer. And I don't take that trust lightly. It cannot be rushed in most cases, as trust should be earned. Checking my references as I will check yours. Communicating in various formats such as using online messages to plan details. Texting and calling on the phone to confirm plans. Then calling the night before the shoot to confirm everything is still on. If someone is in the same town as me, sometimes I'll even meet them in person before a shoot. If a new model asks if she can bring "a friend" so that she will feel more comfortable in new surroundings, I will discuss this with her. I don't try to talk her out of it, instead I discuss with her what this person will be doing to help her be more comfortable. If that person is someone I've met through a referral (many models send other models to me) then perhaps it will be a mutually known person. I've also been invited by photographers and models to attend shoots where I know both, but they don't know each other. I don't have a problem with that at all. The lead photographer is in charge, be it me or the one I've been invited by. I was in a camera club, so this was a common occurance for me back in the 1980's. That is why I use the term invited guest ... someone that is mutually agreed upon by both the photographer and model ... and understands their place in this situation. The person "invited" will not be a stranger by the time they arrive at the shoot. I make sure of that! I try not to over communicate, but most get a kick out of me when I ask point blank "are you gonna flake on me?" "You thinking of bringing a big mean headknocker to beat me up if I look at you cross eyed?" The very first model I worked with who came directly from this website is Gina (MzMafia). She and I had a good laugh about the drama on this forum. She did not flake, and she came by herself. We've shot again since, and the last time she picked me up in her car. You can just imagine my style or way of working with people. I consider myself to be a better "people manager" than photographer ... quite honestly! I had to be good at people management to shoot all the weddings I've shot, and manage the portrait studios that I have. The night that those two women basically stole the film and proofs from me was a learning experience for me. I figured "well I'm a stranger to them, so what the hell ... they both can come." They were complete strangers to me too! I had let my guard down! That incident happened to me before the Internet. There were bells, red flags and whistles that those two young women blew though! I was a long haired hippie dude driving a cargo van with blacked out windows that they met at a nightclub. I gave them my business card. (big deal!) They liked the idea of doing a photo shoot, and "why not tonight?" They follow me in their Honda car to a deserted strip mall in the middle of the night. I open the door to a large studio, they were much more trusting of me when I think about it. The session went fine ... probably with me doing most of the talking. Then I'm putting away the camera when the "model" changed quickly into a Nazi bitch that would demand I process the film and give everything to her right away! Her friend even helped her with saying that I better do it or they'd make good on their threats to make a scene. It would be the word of two attractive young women against one long haired hippie dude. Looked bad for me, but now I understand that I blew through warning signs too. I never knew their last names, and never saw their drivers license. The realization that I had no clue as to why they knew where my darkroom was ... or seemed to know more about me than I knew about them hit me hard. No wonder they didn't mind taking risks, as they told me before I finished processing the film that this is how they build their portfolios in Germany! That is pretty frightening when you think about it! They left in the wee early morning hours ... never to be seen by me again. Since then, I have shot with German models without any fear of them doing the same. What I do differently is I carefully listen to what the model is saying. I check references. I provide my own references when asked. I communicate with them until I've reached the point where I am comfortable working with them. I don't rush things. That incident happened to me back in 1992, and I have not had another experience like that since!
Is this appropriate? in Model Colloquy
You are way over-thinking this. The OP locates a photographer willing to shoot the photos and a model willing to pose for the images. They all agree on a price (even if the price is just that the model keeps the clothes and the photographer gets the images). The photographer shoots the photos. The model signs two releases, one for the photographer and one for the OP. The photographer delivers the images to the OP along with a usage license. Tell me where this mythical contract is that the OP has to sign? A model release is valid when given to a minor. Indeed the right to publicity applies to a minor publishing images just as it does for an adult. She is in Florida and may not even need a release, but if she want one to be safe, her age has nothing to do with it. The same is true about the grant of a license. Have a look at the copyright statute. A minor can own copyright, and by extension, a photographer can license rights to a minor. Think about it, the law has to permit it. Otherwise a minor could never legally make a copy of a photo, or paper or anything because they couldn't get permission from the copyright holder. A license granted to a minor is totally valid and is not a contract with the minor. You guys are misreading the issues. The real issue is whether a photographer and a model would be willing to produce the images for the OP. I can't imagine why they wouldn't with her parent's consent. This is all one great big yawn. To the OP, kudos for your work and ambition. If you have any trouble with this, at all, drop me a line. I will get a model to pose for you and I will shoot it for free. I'd like to support your efforts, not make it more difficult.
Who's with me? in Off-Topic Discussion
Here we go, link-o-rama from one of the 1324 previous threads MM Threads about Minors modeling Nude, Implied, in Swimwear or Lingerie, or Similar Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) Photography Talk > Am I being set up? (2+ pages) General Industry > Underage Fashion Models posing Nude for Euro Vogue (5+ pages) Photography Talk > T Magazine & Paolo Roversi & Underage nudes State Laws regarding Child Pornography or Nudity (USA) State Child Pornography Statutes (PDF document) Federal Laws regarding Child Pornography (USA) All are part of Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 (Index) Note that nudity is not automatically included, and that clothed images can be included. 2251. Sexual exploitation of children § 2252. Certain activities relating to material involving the sexual exploitation of minors § 2252A. Certain activities relating to material constituting or containing child pornography § 2256. Definitions for chapter § 2257. Record keeping requirements
Minors and copyright in General Industry
OK, then there really is no point in having this conversation. You continue to argue the same thing over and over, but you simply miss the entire issue of contracts and minors. It is the minor, and the minor alone, who can rescind the contract. If a minor enters into a contract with an adult, the adult is bound by the agreement even though they are dealing with a minor. The model CANNOT rescind the release. With very, very few exceptions, (and I can't think of any), if there is consideration, there is a contract. If the shooter gives the model prints as consideration for the shoot/release, there is a contract, albeit a very limited one. Take this example. A fourteen year old goes into the store and buys a bicycle. The bike comes with a one year warranty plus the dealer agrees to perform free tune-ups for a year. The teen pays for the bike and takes it with him. That is a contract. It is perfectly legal. If the teen changes his mind in an hour, the store will probably have to take the bike back (I say probably because there is variation on the right for a minor to rescind depending on state). Quite often though, as you are aware, the minor can rescind the contract. On the other hand, if the teen keeps the bike, the manufacturer is still bound by the warranty and the dealer is still going to have to do the tune-ups. Rescission doesn't mean you can disavow the contract, it means you have the right to change your mind and unwind the transaction. The bike dealer can't order the teen to return the bicycle. More than that, to rescind an agreement, you must make the other party whole. The model can't simply say, "April Fools" you are a minor so I took your prints or I took your money, but the release is invalid. To rescind an agreement, she would somehow have to unwind the agreement and make the photographer whole, which would mean payment or other consideration. For the record, in most states, any agreement is rescindible by any party so long as you make the other party whole. I will give you an example. If you lease an apartment and you decide to leave early, you can move out before the end of the lease so long as you pay the rent until there is another tenant and cover the costs, such as cleaning and re-rental. You can't be held liable for all outstanding rent on the contact so long as the landlord is made whole. The bottom line is that, with respect to the minor, the model has no right to rescind the release because the photographer was a minor. And while all agreements are rescindible by anyone in many states, from a practical standpoint, there is no way to unwind most model releases after publication.Thanks for being patient. I agree with everything you've stated here. I don't feel I'm arguing anything, merely asking the same question a variety of ways because I don't think I'm being understood. Not your fault, I just have to find the right way to ask what I'm trying to get at. The answers are all more to the idea of whether a release is a contract or not and who has the right to rescind the contract. That has been established and I'm not disagreeing with any of that. The copyright thing has been answered directly on point by Fotographia Fantastique. Minors have nothing special to do in order to gain a registered copyright. A guardian does not have to do anything. With a release, is a parent/guardian required or even desired for any aspect of the interaction between the model and photographer (other than being alone with a minor, that is a whole other can of worms). The other part of my question dealt with usage license. Who signs the usage license to allow the model to use the images? Is this also a legally binding agreement? Would it require a parent/guardian to act on the minor's behalf? The whole idea behind the Capacity Laws is to prevent someone from taking advantage of a minor or mentally deficient person due to their lack of understanding. This is why it is customary for a parent/guardian to sign on behalf of the minor to ensure that the contract is binding. Is this correct? Let me try another example. Minor photographs model. Model signs release with the consideration being she will receive 5 retouched hi-res images for her portfolio. Now, the shoot is over with the model having fulfilled her end of that agreement. Suppose that the minor does not fulfill his end of the agreement. What legal ramifications come from this situation? Now, on here most people would tell the model to "just move on and chalk it up to experience and don't work with that photographer again." This is most likely why nothing of this sort has come into a courtroom...just not worth the aggravation. However, what recourse would the model have in court? Would it be any different than if the photographer was not a minor? I apologize if I'm frustrating you. Seriously, that isn't my intent. I'm just trying to gather whether there is any difference for a model dealing with a minor photographer vs a non-minor. Any difference at all.
Am I being set up? in Photography Talk
Odd, but not "awful strange." Just answer her question if you know the answer, or tell her you don't know. Or tell her you're not interested no matter whether it is or isn't legal, or... Asking a question is perfectly legitimate in most cases. MM Threads on Photographing Minors in the Nude, Suggestive, Risque, Sexy, or similar situations Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) General Industry > Underage Fashion Models posing Nude for Euro Vogue (5+ pages) Photography Talk > T Magazine & Paolo Roversi & Underage nudes State Laws regarding Child Pornography or Nudity (They're not the same thing.) State Child Pornography Statutes (PDF document) Federal Laws regarding Child Pornography (Again, includes more than nudity) All are part of Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 (Index) Note that nudity is not automatically included, and that clothed images can be included. 2251. Sexual exploitation of children § 2252. Certain activities relating to material involving the sexual exploitation of minors § 2252A. Certain activities relating to material constituting or containing child pornography § 2256. Definitions for chapter § 2257. Record keeping requirements
17 will get you 15 to 20 ?! in General Industry
+1 I've yet to see anybody sent to prison for the act of photographing a minor. I honestly don't understand this "No way! Not until she's 18" philosophy. What happens after the model turns 18 that couldn't happen when she's 17? Are photographers worried about minors falsely accusing them? Does that fear vanish when the model turns 18? Are you better off being falsely accused of something if the model is 21 vs 17? Or is there an increase likelihood that it happening with a 17 year old vs an 18 year old? Do photographers think they are limited to very narrow content when the model is a minor? Unless you're shooting overtly provocative or nude images that wouldn't be an issue either. Or are photographers worried about the perception of being a creepy perv if you're shooting a model who happens to be a minor? If that's the case, then the real issue isn't with others. Unless you shoot explicit or sexual content why in the world would the age of the subject matter? What is the major red flag, even in this scenario? Her father is disabled. So you meet with him prior to the shoot, have both parties sign any applicable documents and you schedule the shoot. There is no law stating you can't photograph a minor without a parent/guardian being present.
Standard Release? in Model Colloquy
This is just the basic release I use. Since I shoot pay and tfp with adults and minors I combined it into one. Anthony’s Art World is hiring model’s for paid and TFP shoots. It is agreed with Anthony and model or Parent’s or Guardian’s of minor model for a TFP___ or paid shoot for the sum of_________. The shoot is for the benefit of model or the parents of minor models and Anthony’s Art World. The photo’s taken will be used for Anthony’s Art World’s projects and or parent’s and or model’s project’s. In addition Anthony will have the right to publish said Photo’s to Anthony’s Art World websites. Anthony also has the right to promote the final product in advertisements such as magazine’s, websites, and pamphlets. A c.d will be given to the model or parent’s of minor model after final editing is done with said photo’s for promotional use by said model’s and or parent’s of minor model’s. Copyright of said photo’s is owned by Anthony but the model or parent’s of minor model have the right to promote themselves with said photo’s. The model or parent’s of minor model are not to sell, alter, re-edit or change said photo’s in anyway without express written consent from Anthony at Anthony’s Art World. All Anthony asks is model or parent’s of minor model give acknowledgement to Anthony and Anthony’s Art World and link said photo’s to Anthony’s Art World web sites. Signature of Anthony’s Art World Representative____________________________ Signature of model______________________________ Signature of minor model’s parent’s or guardian’s____________________________________ Witness________________________________ Witness________________________________ Date_______________
Minors shooting nudes and fetish? Is this legal? in Photography Talk
To the titular question: Legal? In most states in the USA, if not all, yes, depending on how it's photographed. In those same states, photographing a minor in the same amount of clothing may be illegal, again, depending on how it's photographed. Wise? In most states in the USA, if not all, no. For more details, take a look at some of these earlier MM threads. Be aware that many people make claims without knowing the facts, so it's best to confirm broad claims ("It's illegal everywhere in the world no matter what!!!1!") with specifics. Nude, Suggestive, Risque, Sexy, or Similar Photography Talk > Need advice for underage shoot (Miley Cyrus/Vanity Fair-style) General Industry > Minors shooting lignerie? General Industry > Underage models. (“sexy” photos requested by model) General Industry > Suggested nudes (…of an underage model) General Industry > Underage Model (Suicide girl-style, 5+ pages) General Industry > Implied nude with minors? (5+ pages) General Industry > Photographing Nude Minors...... (5+ pages) General Industry > Under-age models & "implied" General Industry > Dilema..!! (Art nudes w/16 y/o model in UK) General Industry > What state in the US is underage... (…nude images acceptable?) (5+ pages) General Industry > Shooting a 16 y/o nude, but covered sparsely? (6 pages, locked) Model Matters > Underage models. How sexy is too sexy? Model Matters > Underage model nudity? (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage models & glamour/pin-up/lingerie? Model Matters > Minors working implide Model Matters > Underage Lingerie Shooting Model Matters > how young is to young?? (“…sexy pics done hand bras…”) (3+ pages) Model Matters > Underage sister posing nude for pro photogs! (8+ pages) Photography Talk > Underage lingerie modeling (3+ pages) Photography Talk > Another Question about Minors!!! (Semi-nude) Photography Talk > Legal age to shoot nudes (3+ pages) Photography Talk > When I work with minors... (lingerie requested by parent) Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? (Trueteenbabes.com) (4+ pages) Photography Talk > Implied and underage model (7+ pages) Photography Talk > Am I being set up? (2+ pages)
Darn those underage Models in Nightclubs.... in Model Colloquy
Hey Garry! I just realized I never did comment on YOUR original post ... so here goes! I already mentioned how important communication is to me and that I watch for any red flags before proceeding with shoots regardless of the age of the model. It's sort of like having developed an intuition, but if I sense that a model has issues that cause her to flake on me, then I either make back up plans or I don't book with her. I'm not going to go into all that right now because this is about you and this potential shoot with a minor. First thing I would consider is how this minor came to be in this club. Was she in the fashion show? If so, then can you verify with the organizer that she is legit, perhaps as a reference? Years ago, I was at a club that I'd been lied to by that German woman who with her female companion kidnapped me ... and guess what? They had fake ID's! She wasn't 21, or so she said after the shoot. So you know that I check people out nowadays! It doesn't have to be blatant or obvious, as I have perfected the art by taking on the character of Lt. Columbo by asking questions that might not seem of importance. Also I play the naive dumb guy pretty well. Honestly, this technique has gotten me in to places that ... well are pretty amazing! Sometimes I've been "helped" backstage to meet bands and such! I'm constantly thinking ... looking for clues when it comes to talking with potential models, and also I used this when meeting with potential wedding clients as I always based my fees individually on each wedding. Ok, back to red flags ... you sir, have intuition. You used the word "awkward" and that right there is a red flag to consider in regards to your own feelings about shooting with her. "Let's continue ..." in my Colombo voice inside my head! She responded "she doesn't think her parent can join her for the shoot" ... so did you ask why? Ok, then did you ask if there was another time when a parent "could" be present? Try not to make it seem pinned on her shoulders though ... it's about you and how you like to do things. You may have already stated to her that you would feel much more comfortable having a parent present? If she says it's just not possible even with trying to schedule a time when a parent could be there, then go with your gut ... intuition. You know that I have shot minor aged models with or without parents present. My own decisions are based on the communication in advance of shooting. Photographing minor aged models can be very rewarding and fun! It's important to keep the images and attire appropriate of course. Communication must be clear as to any direction or information of importance before, during and after the shoot. Having other people present ... as in a parent, a MUA or an assistant can be extremely helpful! My advise to you is genuine ... if you have any inkling that there might be some problem, then take a pass on her until she is an adult.
Mommy and Daddy in General Industry
For minors I require the presence of a parent or legal guardian (and for guardian I'd require seeing and photographing the papers of guardianship). Until the parents are comfortable with the shoot, I require them to be at the shoot. After that, they need to be at least within earshot. I don't communicate with the model by phone, only by email, but I do insist on talking with a parent by phone at least once, and I require the parents to be CC:'d on all emails. One 17yo minor I worked with seven times, on the sixth and seventh shoots we did walk to a location alone, but I first checked in with the parents. I've worked with plenty of minors. Never had a bad experience with any of them, since I clear everything with the parents. I did have one group shoot that involved three MUAHs and two models (one 17yo) and the minor model's bossy mom drove everyone up the walls. I had a private talk with her on the sidelines and solved that. The young model, though, was exemplary... a total pro. But before I'd work with a minor model who's got a legal guardian, I'd want to do some advance research on the paperwork involved.